A month before Georgia’s crucial parliamentary elections, Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee of German Bundestag Michael Roth is visiting Tbilisi from September 16 to 17. During his stay, Mr. Roth met with President Salome Zurabishvili, opposition politicians, civil society representatives, and activists. The Georgian Dream government officials have refused to meet with him.
Civil’ge’s Gigi Kobakhidze had the opportunity to speak with him about recent developments in Georgia and the region, the upcoming parliamentary elections and the future of the country’s European path.
Thank you for the interview. Your visit comes a month before Georgia’s elections, which many see as a referendum between Europe and Russia. Recently, your Bundestag colleagues visited Georgia, but they were denied meetings with government officials. Prime Minister Irakli Kobakhidze said that meeting with them would not be “feasible” and in that context noted your “involvement in a revolutionary attempt” citing your address to protesters against the Foreign Agents Law during your last visit to Tbilisi. Parliament Speaker also said that you had “insulted” the Georgian people, Church and the government. Have GD officials given any reasons for refusal to meet? Are there any government officials who plan to meet with you by the end of your visit?
I am very thankful to be here because I learned to love the country and the people, and this country deserves our support because I do believe in the people. But I don’t believe in the government.
In my long political life one motto was always key for me – dialogue. Let’s talk to each other. That’s much better than just talking about each other.
And believe me, I travel to many, many countries across Europe, across the world. And I had many, many challenging experiences. But this is the only country worldwide who refuses [to meet with] democratically elected parliamentarians.
This is the only country worldwide who refuses [to meet with] democratically elected parliamentarians. This government tries to paint me as a fringe voice.
This government tries to paint me as a fringe voice. That’s definitely not true. I’m proud to say: I speak on behalf of the overwhelming majority of the German Bundestag. The vast majority of the European member states share my view on this country.
You mentioned the rallies and the demonstrations. When I was here last time, I belonged to a delegation, a cross-party delegation of senior parliamentarians from Europe. Usually we disagree. One of my distinguished colleagues represents the far-rights, the nationalists from Finland. The others represent conservative liberal parties. I was the only social democrat, the only progressive politician. We all attended the rally because we were invited. We were invited to speak to the people. And that was one of the most moving moments in my political life. A day after, four Foreign Ministers – the Baltic Foreign Ministers, the Foreign Minister of Iceland – did the same. They accepted the invitation to speak. They sent exactly the same message to the people.
This country tries to isolate me. But this government leads the country into total isolation.
So this campaign to undermine my personal integrity with lies, with conspiracy theories, goes into the wrong direction. It’s not about Michael Roth. This country tries to isolate me. But this government leads the country into total isolation.
So you think it’s not personal, and their refusal to meet with you says something about the government’s course…
Of course. I met so many people. They all share the same experiences. The government doesn’t understand that criticizing a government or a ruling party in a vivid democracy doesn’t mean to insult them. Yes, sometimes I’m harsh, of course, but that’s the way we should communicate in a free society. So I don’t understand.
The government does not understand that criticizing a government or a ruling party in a vivid democracy does not mean to insult them.
And again, two weeks ago, a cross-party delegation with senior parliamentarians [came]…The Spokespersons for Foreign Affairs, not just from the governing party, but also from the biggest opposition party, the conservatives… It was so unacceptable to refuse them.
Again, it’s not a very smart strategy, because it’s weird. If you want to tell us that we disagree or we try to insult them, it’s better to talk. So I’m very relaxed, because the perception and the assessment of the government is definitely not the assessment of the people here in your country.
But you met with the civil society and the opposition politicians. What messages did you bring to them and to Georgia?
First of all, let me add, I have the privilege today to meet the President. During my last conversation with my counterpart [Chair of the parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee Nikoloz Samkharadze] his only message he had was that “She [President Salome Zourabichvili] is not our state President, she is the President of the opposition.” It’s very sad. It’s very sad, because we are all proud of her and she is a brave lady. And all doors worldwide and in Europe are open for her, because she’s such an important figure fighting for European Georgia and not for an isolated one. So I’m very grateful to meet her.
The civil society everywhere is the backbone of our society, of our democracy. And yes, I meet so many civil society activists, also in my own country. And it’s not always easy. They criticize me. Sometimes it’s very, very tough; we have a very tough controversy because usually we don’t always agree. That’s normal.
My message here is: don’t give up…Ignore what the government says. The government tries to stigmatize you to undermine your credibility.
But my message here is: don’t give up. My message is: ignore what the government says. The government tries to stigmatize you to undermine your credibility. Georgia can be proud of such a diverse landscape of civil society organizations and activists. They love their country. But they want to live like I have the privilege to live – in democracy and freedom with a strong commitment to the rule of law. And that’s exactly what the vast majority of the population here in your country wants. And they are very active.
I am not here to support the opposition. I am here to promote European values.
And I very much hope for free and fair elections. That was one of the lies. I’m not here to support the opposition. I’m here to promote European values. In my long political life, I have had both experiences. I served in opposition and I served in the government for eight years as a minister. So I know both sides and both sides are vital.
You’ve mentioned the elections and you hope they will be conducted freely and fairly…The pre-election campaign is in full swing and the GD government claims 60 percent of support. Meanwhile, the polls suggest otherwise. Many fear that the elections might be rigged and that in that case the citizens’ protest will be imminent. And then so many people fear that the Belarus-style scenario will unfold with the same final results in Georgia. But others say that Georgia is not Belarus and authoritarianism cannot be established here. What do you think about that comparison with Belarus?
The upcoming elections are the most important ones in the history of the free and independent Georgia. Free and fair elections are key and this is an obligation for all political institutions, because it is up to the people to decide. It’s not up to me to decide. It’s not up to the embassies to decide. It’s not up to the European Union to decide. This is the choice of the people and the choice is crystal clear: a European Georgia or an isolated Georgia. That’s the choice. Very simple. Democracy or authoritarianism. That’s the choice.
The upcoming elections are the most important ones in the history of the free and independent Georgia…The choice if crystal clear: an European Georgia or an isolated Georgia…Democracy or authoritarianism.
And I expect from the government and all political institutions that the international observers, the representatives of international independent organizations, for instance, Council of Europe, OSCE, can do their jobs. And I expect that all civil society activists who want to monitor the elections can do their job. I expect that a ruling party respects the outcome of an election.
But let me be very clear. We know how fragile democracy sometimes is. Trumpism, nationalism, populism are the biggest threats for democracy. I will never forget that Mr. Trump, not just the so-called president of Belarus, rejected the [results of U.S.] election. Trump spoke about stolen votes. All democratic institutions refused this criticism. So I do believe in the strength of the political system, of democracy here. The European Union, the German government, the German Bundestag, all international institutions are extremely aware…So we will have a look at the country and I promise to the people: we will give them a voice and we respect the result if the election is free and fair. That’s key. Not just here in Tbilisi, but across the country.
But if the elections are not assessed as free and fair, or if the government refuses to recognize the results of the elections, is the West and in particular the EU, ready to react and support the people of Georgia after the elections?
I don’t want to speculate. That’s why I’m here. That’s why many, many political leaders, senior parliamentarians already visited your country or will visit your country. We stand with the people. Because it’s crystal clear in all public polls, the overwhelming majority of your country is in favor of the Euro-Atlantic perspective. And that is my commitment – to support them.
So I don’t want to speculate but again, the European Union, the Council of Europe, the OSCE will start to observe the elections. We are extremely aware of the situation and the people here in this country can count on us.
The Foreign Agents Law had serious consequences for Georgia, like halting the EU accession process and many Western-funded projects; but the government is playing down on the significance of these consequences. They even turn a deaf ear to the critical statements from the West. Many think that the people’s protest alone is not enough and the West should do more, that it should take more pressing actions like targeted sanctions against the government officials. Just yesterday the US Treasury Department sanctioned four individuals for anti-democratic actions and serious human rights abuses. Also, the State Department imposed visa restrictions on more than 60 individuals and their family members for undermining democracy in Georgia. Do you think the EU is doing enough before the elections, before it’s not too late?
I appreciate the commitment of the United States, but we as a European Union have much stronger tool. Our tool is the EU perspective.
If this government does not stop the anti-democratic policies, there is no way to join the European Union.
And let me be very clear: if this government doesn’t stop the anti-democratic policies, there is no way to join the European Union. And this is not my personal point of view, this is the EU’s point of view, this is the German government’s point of view, this is the German Bundestag’s point of view: the Foreign Agents Law, the Russian “Agents Law” must be withdrawn. The Offshore Law must be withdrawn. And the anti-LGBTI law must be repealed. So these are the clear expectations.
The Foreign Agents Law must be withdrawn. The Offshore Law must be withdrawn. And the anti-LGBTI law must be repealed. So, these are the clear expectations…We are working on a motion, a resolution, the German Bundestag, to make this position clear.
And if the government – my distinguished friends here in Tbilisi – don’t believe me, they should believe the Bundestag. We are working on a motion, a resolution, the German Bundestag, to make this position very clear. The German Bundestag, which plays a very important role, will never ever accept these decisions.
So it’s up to the people. The EU perspective and a clear strategy towards the European Union or isolation. And I don’t want this wonderful, amazing country to be isolated.
Yesterday, President Salome Zurabishvili called on two opposition forces – the Strong Georgia coalition and the ex-Prime Minister Giorgi Gakharia For Georgia – to unite. She said they can create some kind of “positive third center” that will make the choice for the citizens easier. Salome Zurabishvili had also initiated the Georgian Charter, the document which addresses the nine steps of the EU. What is your assessment of President Salome Zurabishvili’s efforts in bringing the opposition parties together?
Unfortunately, the President has to play a role [that] I expect from the government and [that] I expect from the ruling party. She is the honest broker to defend democracy and freedom and the European perspective. And she does a great job.
President [Salome Zourabichvili] has to play a role [that] I expect from the government and [that] I expect from the ruling party…And she does a great job.
But I don’t want to assess and I don’t want to comment on domestic developments because it’s up to the opposition. I can imagine it’s not easy, but I met many representatives of the opposition and it’s fair enough to emphasize this: I’m not here just to meet opposition leaders. I’m here to meet everyone, but unfortunately they refused me from the ruling party.
Last time, I could meet my [Georgian] counterpart in the headquarter of the Georgian Dream…That was a disgrace for me.
Last time I could [only] meet my [Georgian] counterpart in the headquarter of the Georgian Dream. I never ever in my whole political life received an official guest in the headquarter of my party. I receive my guests in the Parliament, in the official parliamentary building. Or if we are friends or, if we have enough time I receive them as a guest of honor in a restaurant but I don’t receive them in the headquarter of a party. That was a disgrace for me.
And the excuse was: “There is no free access to the Parliament because of the radical young people who block the access” who were so “radical” that they were afraid of my security. That’s so strange. So you know: I’m very emotional about that. I have a long, long and challenging experience with the behavior of your government.
Thank you. From Tbilisi you’re heading to Armenia. The EU has just started the visa liberalization dialogue with Armenia and Georgia’s EU pass is still uncertain. So it seems like the EU is focusing more on Armenia to not lose the South Caucasus region to Russia. What is your assessment about Armenia’s rapprochement with the European Union?
We should do much more. It’s in our national and in our European interest to stabilize our neighborhood. Peace, democracy are vital for us. And I’m so grateful, not just the brave people here in Georgia fight for democracy, also the Armenians. And you know, traditionally, the ties between Russia and Armenia were extremely strong over decades.
Now, the Armenians made a very brave decision: “We belong to Europe.”
But now, the Armenians made a very brave decision: “We belong to Europe.” And we have to do much more if it comes to political support, economic support and military support, because the South Caucasus is a very, very fragile and a very, very, very unstable region. And I will never forget when I was last time in Armenia. I asked my friends, what can we do for you? And the message was very clear: “We hope that our friends in Georgia have a chance to join the European Union as soon as possible, because Georgia plays a strategic role as a bridge builder between Armenia and the European Union.” So both countries are linked.
That’s why I extremely appreciate that. Prime Minister Pashinyan is now visiting Tbilisi. That’s great. I very much hope that both countries can establish a close friendship based on trust and confidence. And based on the joint conviction, both countries belong to Europe. So, it’s quite normal that I visit this country. We have to be aware of the developments.
Armenia is a young, but fragile democracy. Azerbaijan is an authoritarian regime. And I cannot ignore this just because we need gas or oil from Azerbaijan. More important than gas and oil are democracy and freedom and human rights granted to the people.
And I’m also in Armenia to discuss the negotiations about a peace deal with Azerbaijan. That’s extremely important. And I am not just under pressure by the Georgian government, I’m also under pressure by the government of Azerbaijan for a very simple reason. They tell me me, “it’s so unfair,” – I’m an ally of Armenia, and I just criticize Azerbaijan. Yes, I do. I’m a friend and I’m an ally of Armenia. But why? This is very common in politics and in foreign policy, [but] I was never ever in favor of this strategy of ambiguity for a simple reason. Armenia is a young but fragile democracy. Azerbaijan is an authoritarian regime. And I cannot ignore this just because we need gas or oil from Azerbaijan. More important than gas and oil are democracy and freedom and the human rights granted to all people.
And my last question is about your earlier statement that the Georgian government and its controlled media are trying to discredit you and your personal life. During the press conference, during your last visit to Tbilisi, you warned about the brain drain of the youth from Georgia and you noted that the Church is the closest ally of the GD government. But the government and its controlled media used this statement of yours to discredit you. Religion is a very sensitive issue for the Georgian people and the ruling party knows this very well. If you wish, could you elaborate on this statement to make it clear to the Georgian people?
Of course. I know this is a very sensitive issue because the so-called journalists who received me at the airport at three o’clock in the morning asked me just three questions: “Are you here to apologize for your insults of the Holy Church?”; “Are you here to support the opposition?”; “Are you here to destroy the unity of the country?”
I guess, I go more often to the services of my church than all these journalists together. My personal faith is very important. I’m very active in my own church. And my whole political, my whole life, I criticized my own church. For instance…I’m a protestant and my church was a bit hesitant to accept same-sex marriages. Honestly, that was the only reason why I married, because we made a decision in our church and Parliament to accept a marriage between men and men, and between women and women. And that was a big success.
The freedom of religions and churches and the right to criticize them are two sides of the same coin….It was never my intention to insult a church. I criticize them not as a religious institution. I criticize them as a political institution, as a political ally.
So, maybe there is a misunderstanding. The freedom of religions and churches and the right to criticize them are two sides of the same coin. And this is not the personal view of Michael Roth. This is one of the guiding principles in all democracies. We don’t live in an Islamic country, like in Iran or Saudi Arabia, where religion plays the crucial role.
One of the reasons why I learned to love this country was the proud history of respect, diversity and tolerance for minorities and the peaceful coexistence of many, many minorities here in the country. And I know that the Orthodox Church plays a very important role like in many other countries, in Serbia, in Russia.
So, it was never my intention to insult a Church. I criticize them not as a religious institution. I criticize them as a political institution, as a political ally. That’s it. And I very much hope if someday Georgia will be a member state of the European Union, that will be quite normal.
Thank you so much.
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