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Day: January 8, 2026
A symbolic and practical milestone in Azerbaijan’s green energy transition was marked on January 8 with the official opening of the 240 MW Khizi-Absheron Wind Power Plant, implemented by Saudi Arabia’s ACWA Power. This project represents the first renewable power facility built by ACWA Power in Azerbaijan and signals the deepening of strategic energy cooperation between Azerbaijan and leading global investors.
Resolve the Georgian–Abkhaz conflict, role of Russia
Georgian politician Giga Bokeria (opposition party Federalists) and conflict expert Paata Zakareishvili discuss pressing issues in Georgian society:
- How to restore Georgia’s territorial integrity so that Abkhazia becomes part of the country not only de jure, as it is now, but also de facto.
- Once this is achieved, how should the consequences of the conflict, which has lasted over 30 years, be addressed, and what actions should the state and society take?
- Opinions are sharply divided, in particular, on whether the situation is solely a Georgian-Russian conflict with Russia occupying Abkhazia, or whether it is fundamentally rooted in the Georgian-Abkhaz ethnic conflict.
Key points of the discussion
Host Ana Kaulashvili: Thank you both for coming and making the time. I expect this will be a very interesting debate, as this is a complex and important topic for Georgia. Today we want to talk about what you think Georgia should do now (to regain Abkhazia).
What steps should be taken to resolve the conflict? Should it be a reconciliatory dialogue and reconciliation with our “brothers,” or is a show of strength needed?
I’m also interested in discussing whether you see the situation as a single major conflict between Georgia and Russia, or as several ethnic conflicts.
I would also like to discuss what needs to be done if the problem is resolved and de-occupation occurs. That will probably be a relatively smaller problem if things progress in that direction. But it is still a topic worth discussing and deserves attention.
Before we start the debate, I’d like you to briefly share your views, not on every topic, but in general.
Giga Bokeria: It’s wrong to discuss relations with Abkhazia in isolation. This is a confrontation with Russia – Russian aggression and occupation of Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali region. And separately, Russia’s aggression against the Georgian state. My position is unchanged.
Only with strong allies, achieving consensus across the free world and neutralizing Russian aggression, but not treating this only as an ethnic conflict. Only by achieving all these components can we be in a position to carry out de-occupation.
There will be a chance for peaceful de-occupation, not a guarantee. This chance exists if our enemy, Russia, and the groups that remain in these enclaves after it weakens, understand it. If they see that we are strong and capable of using force, then there will be a chance for peaceful de-occupation.
Of course, another factor is what kind of country we are. That will also be a factor.
In this sequence – only from a position of strength – can the goal be achieved, which I will explain in more detail.
It is urgent to neutralize the narrative of so-called ethnic conflicts, which harms our national interests.
Paata Zakareishvili: My viewpoint is fundamentally different. Of course, Russia is a key factor. Without considering the Russian factor, success in the Abkhazia direction is impossible.
But for me, these conflicts are threefold.
First, it’s the Russian-Georgian conflict and the need to prevent Russian aggression. Here I fully agree with Giga regarding the Russian component.
Then, in my view, it is important to talk about Georgian-Abkhaz relations and Georgia’s responsibilities.
Third, the Abkhaz side has its own agency. They have their own interests.
If we do not consider and study Abkhaz interests, Georgia cannot effectively take measures against Russia.
We can demonstrate to Abkhazia the strength of a democratic, European-oriented Georgia. This offers completely different prospects to the Abkhaz side.
In this context, I believe Georgia must recognize its responsibility to not only speak about Russia, but also to engage respectfully with Abkhazia, considering their agency and interests.
Host: Both positions are understandable. Let’s agree on the rules.
You have both taken part in our discussions before.
I’m very glad that you are participating again.
Still, I would like to remind you of the rules and remind our viewers that we will have four segments in total.
There are a few changes in today’s debate format, and I will explain them now.
First, each of you will have five minutes to present your arguments.
This time will be entirely at your disposal.
Then there will be a 20-minute period of open discussion in dialogue format.
You will be able to address each other directly and respond to one another.
There is a small change in the third segment.
Previously, this was a Q&A segment.
Now we have decided to structure this segment differently.
The first 20 minutes will focus on steps toward Abkhazia’s reintegration (into Georgia)
The following 10 minutes will be a Q&A session, where we will discuss what should be done after Abkhazia’s reintegration, how we should act, and what steps should be taken.
I think this is a rather complex topic, so we will stick to this plan
This will make the discussion easier than breaking it up and asking questions later.
You will each have two minutes to conclude the debate. You may summarize and add anything you feel is necessary.
As always, we will roll the dice to decide who starts.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Three.
Giga Bokeria:
Six.
Host:
The higher number starts the debate.
So, Giga begins. You have five minutes.
Giga Bokeria:
Thank you very much. I will repeat once again that for me this is about neutralizing Russian aggression and de-occupation.
In this sense, there is no fundamental difference between Abkhazia and the Tskhinvali region.
First of all, I would like to say that you, the viewers, or others may have a question.
Why should we spend time talking about the occupation in the current situation, under this kind of government?
When today we have a government that serves the interests of the enemy occupying these territories and helps maintain that occupation.
I will answer this hypothetical question.
This discussion is necessary so that our society can reach at least some level of consensus on questions such as:
What should we do when we have a government that is concerned not with national interests, but with protecting the money and power of one individual, at the expense of the country’s future?
The second, and even more important issue, is the narrative that Mr. Paata unfortunately partly supports.
Today, this regime and Russian propaganda use this narrative against our national interests, to disorient and demoralize us.
What do I mean by demoralization?
Their core position suggests that the Abkhazia issue, and thus the conflicts, can be resolved as if by snapping one’s fingers.
(They think that), on the one hand, it is enough to normalize relations with Russia and, on the other, to engage in full dialogue with Sukhumi and Tskhinvali and create a breakthrough there
Mr. Paata expresses this in a more nuanced way.
This has been said many times before.
This is a major mistake, a very harmful mistake.
A breakthrough is impossible as long as an enemy fully controls the situation there.
Moreover, we must put an end to this rhetoric right now so as not to mislead the public.
This regime tries to exploit people’s fear of war, claiming it is saving us from war precisely by normalizing relations with Russia and engaging in dialogue with Sukhumi and Tskhinvali.
That is their line.
We must neutralize this lie.
Second
When we become strong, we will need unconditional support from the free world.
Not in resolving ethnic conflicts, but in neutralizing Russian aggression.
Because if this is framed as ethnic conflicts, resolving the issue becomes an extremely complicated process.
So as not to be only negative, I will say what we should do.
In this case, the steps that the Georgian state and society must take to solve this problem are identical to those needed to preserve our state’s independence overall.
We need to make a major leap forward in strengthening our defense capabilities.
We must be strong.
We must have consensus on this issue; hostile rhetoric must leave no room for maneuver.
I am not saying that everyone who makes this mistake is an enemy.
But this false rhetoric must be defeated.
We need strong allies and membership in the military-political bloc of the free world
Our task and goal is to join NATO
Strategic political relations with the United States.
This is also part of our strength.
We must strengthen the understanding among all major players and regional neighbors that this is about neutralizing Russian aggression, not an ethnic conflict.
This is very important.
And yes, it is also important that we be a strong, free republic where the rights of every citizen are protected regardless of ethnicity, and where broad self-governance, including regional self-government, exists.
This matters.
But all of this must be done in exactly this order: once again, we must be prepared for the moment when our enemy, Russia, weakens or transforms
The latter (the protection of all citizens’ rights) can only happen after (Russia) has weakened
At that moment, the cycle of this evil and what they have created in the occupied territories, filled with ethno-chauvinistic hatred, will come to an end.
These centers of hatred cannot be neutralized with kind words.
If you are strong, those who remain in Abkhazia will know they have no other chance and that the risk they face is high
Only then will there be a chance to resolve this peacefully.
Now I will move on to another topic so as not to spend more time on this.
How we will act afterward.
Very serious challenges will lie ahead.
The legacy of this evil will not be easy to eradicate.
But if we reach that point, that will be what matters most.
We missed our chance twice.
In 1991, Russia was weakened.
But we were not prepared; the country was in ruins.
We allowed all of this to happen because of our weakness.
This narrative – that it is an ethnic conflict – was imposed on us.
Russia has used it very effectively all these years, blocking any international initiatives without political consequences.
The most well-known example is the Boden Plan, approved by the UN and blocked by Russia through Sukhumi.
Claiming that the people there supposedly do not want it.
They have always behaved this way and will continue to do so; as long as this atmosphere exists, there will be no breakthrough.
Dialogue is impossible under tyranny.
But the main question is: with whom should we conduct dialogue, and who represents the Abkhazians?
And first of all, who are the Abkhazians, given that ethnic cleansing and genocide took place there?
There are numerous problems here.
But what I have listed are the minimum necessary prerequisites for fulfilling our national objectives.
======
=========
Host:
Mr. Paata, let’s take five minutes to discuss your position.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Of course, I can respond
Giga’s position is clear, and I want mine to be clear as well.
The audience should see the difference between our positions.
So yes, we should criticize each other if necessary, but I don’t feel the need to attack his position harshly.
I completely agree with one part – the segment about Russia.
But I disagree with the other two.
I just want that to be clear, though any debate is completely normal
Ethnic conflicts existed from the very beginning, and no one could avoid them
The Soviet Union was created this way
We don’t have time to go through the whole history right now
There was a distorted understanding of ethnic identity
The empire itself was flawed, which is why it collapsed so quickly
But it collapsed along the very seams it was stitched together on
Lenin and Stalin built the empire based on ethnic components
Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, with small “rooms” for smaller ethnic groups – Abkhazians, Ossetians, and others
The Soviet Union was called a Union of Soviets, but in reality, it was a union of ethnicities
We won’t go further into this topic now
It’s a completely different subject and would require more time to discuss.
But the Soviet Union collapsed, and it was stitched together backward
Like a garment tearing along its seams, it fell apart along these ethnic lines.
So it’s not that I particularly want to talk about the ethnic component – it’s just that it naturally forms part of the conflict
There’s a concept called generational trauma
When a child’s birth is accompanied by trauma, it can affect them their whole life.
Ethnicity became one of the reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union
It was stitched together incorrectly, and everything else followed
Today it’s no longer as relevant, but it hasn’t disappeared
Now it has taken on a geopolitical dimension.
In the 1990s, there were ethno-political conflicts amid the collapse of the Soviet Union
Russia’s internal problems, and its imperial convulsions
Russia itself faced serious challenges – Yeltsin, Gorbachev, and many other issues
Nevertheless, they didn’t ignore the ethnic components and created hotspots of tension along ethnic lines everywhere.
In happened in Moldova, and it was about Karabakh
The Karabakh conflict was resolved before our eyes.
There are many other examples showing how the Soviet empire managed ethnic issues.
Over time, the further we move from the original events, the more this takes on a geopolitical dimension, and the harder it becomes
Yes, I am ready for the “surgical” interventions Giga refers to, but the more time passes, the harder it becomes to resolve the conflict compared to how much easier it was at the start.
That’s why I firmly believe we must not overlook ethnic identity
For the Abkhazians, protecting their ethnic identity is very important
Working on this is not a problem
They are not such a large group that it would be difficult to preserve their culture, nationality, ethnic identity, traditions, language, and so on.
We need to address these issues so that they can see their future within one state with Georgia
We need to show them what we are like today
We are talking about a strong state.
Intervention by force is unacceptable to me
I reject it because while it may seem like an easier solution, it doesn’t allow the conflict to be resolved
Even transformation would be impossible (in case of intervention by force)
We see this in the example of Azerbaijan and Armenia
Relations improved between two sovereign states
Our adversary, the Abkhazians, are not a sovereign state.
So we need to proceed more cautiously than with imperial Russia, where indeed all the resources Giga mentions, including international relations and strong allies, need to be used.
We’ve lived 30 years in this conflict, but we don’t have another 30 ahead
We must solve the issue with the Abkhazians within at most five years
We need to be ready for how to do that.
I would be very glad to devote my efforts to dealing with Russia, but I am spending all my energy on building relations with the Abkhazians
What should we do today?
My arguments might not be acceptable right now, but here is what our state must do
Not the Georgian Dream party, which doesn’t care about the state at all
It only thinks about its own interests
But the state must see that Abkhazia is facing serious problems with Russia.
Georgia has focused only on itself and is not involved in the (peaceful) process at all
There are many topics to discuss – investments, apartment hotels, things Giga and I can talk about
A comprehensive strategy must be created that includes the elements and problems currently worrying the Abkhazians.
So that they see in Sukhumi that Tbilisi is ready to listen
This is what must be done today to make the Abkhazians reflect on it
I can explain in more detailwhich concrete steps should be taken today to bring them closer to us in five or ten years
If we take their interests into account, we can align them with ours.
Although what needs to be done on the Russian side must also be done.
Host:
Thank you, you’ve explained your positions very clearly
It’s good that you raised these topics
Today we are talking about what Georgia should do
But it’s doubly difficult to discuss this and then implement it when the Georgian Dream party is in power.
And yet, it would be useful to discuss in detail which concrete steps should be taken in the current circumstances, in our context, to bring Abkhazia closer and eventually reunite it with Georgia
We can switch to a “one minute” mode
Giga, you could start.
Giga Bokeria:
First of all, what I disagree with – the Soviet Union did not create Georgia along any “seams”
Paata Zakareishvili:
I meant that the Soviet Union was created along these “seams”
Giga Bokeria:
There were no “seams” in Georgia
Let’s not go deep into history – Abkhazia was part of the historic Georgian feudal state
But we won’t go further into that history
We had the First Republic, which included Abkhazia
Even then, the Russian Bolsheviks and the “Whites” tried to destabilize the situation but failed, because it was a unified civic space and three elections took place there
After that, Stalin and the Russian state established tyranny.
And so it is very wrong to say it that way
It wasn’t a matter of “seams tearing apart” – they were dropping bombs on us
From your account, it sounds as if this just happened inevitably, with no other way
But we need to consider the real power dynamics.
You say these events were initially ethnic and later became geopolitical, but they were geopolitical from the very start
From the first moment, the Russian elite rejected the collapse of the Soviet Union
From the beginning, they acted against the Georgian state
Russian military forces were directly involved
It’s a myth that Russians were “just helping” someone there
That’s false
The Russian military-political machine was directly involved, and this led to the outcome, which included acts of genocide.
Bringing ethnicity into this is destructive, both morally and pragmatically
There were problems among different ethnic communities, and the enemy exploited them
This happens everywhere
It’s like demanding Ukraine start a dialogue with Donbas
You don’t agree with that, right? Or do you think they should?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Dialogue with whom? With us?
Giga Bokeria:
No, should the Ukrainian government (start a dialogue with Donbas)?
Paata Zakareishvili:
No, of course not.
Giga Bokeria:
Then why suggest Georgia should have such a dialogue?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Ukraine isn’t my concern
I’m talking about Georgia and Abkhazia
You’re bringing a new topic, so let’s talk about that topic.
Giga Bokeria:
Why are you suggesting Georgia should have such a dialogue (with Abkhazians)?
Paata Zakareishvili:
If you ask a question, I’ll answer it.
Giga Bokeria:
Georgia was not stitched together along any “seams”
It has always been a victim of Russian aggression – then and now
There was no initial ethnic conflict followed by a geopolitical one
From the start, it was geopolitical
And Russian aggression was involved
They used thousands of pretexts, as enemies always do.
In 1921, they came to (Georgia) to “protect the working class”
What did that mean? That they intended to dialogue with the working class? Was that their aim?
So both claims are false.
Moving to the third part
This topic might be used by those who see themselves as morally-minded regarding the Abkhazians
Let’s discuss and clarify
First, Mr. Paata claimed that we should talk to the people Russia appointed to seize Sukhumi and Tskhinvali
Who do they actually represent? And by what authority, under this tyranny and hell, do they claim to represent anyone?
They carried out genocide, killing and expelling those they didn’t like, primarily ethnic Georgians, as well as others sympathetic to them
In other words, they uphold a purely fascist ideology.
And now we are supposed to normalize relations with these enemies and talk to them from a weak position?
And most importantly, what Mr. Paata suggests is already being done by the Ivanishvili regime – for many years.
============
========
Paata Zakareishvili:
How does he do it?
Giga Bokeria:
It happens directly
When you were minister, you even changed the name of the ministry
so that it would please certain people
I don’t know who exactly, apparently those who thought like you
Their narrative was that everything would be resolved through dialogue with them (the Abkhaz)
That was the government’s line, and it’s still the line of this regime
In the energy sector, the agreement was broken, and that was done by the very government Paata was part of
The agreement was made in the 1990s
80% of energy produced at the Inguri HPP was given to Abkhazia as a “gesture of goodwill”
They (Abkhaz) were given positions
And what did (Georgians) get in return?
In response to direct dialogue with Sukhumi?
Georgian schools were closed, ???, people were killed
We cannot create an illusion about the evil that reigns there today, which I feel acutely
If we talk about preserving the ethnic identity of those citizens still there who identify as Abkhaz, whatever kind of country we are, we must do it
Not for them, but for ourselves
For a normal, free country where the rights of all citizens are protected
We must create a system of broad self-governance in the regions, not as a display for others
Yes, of course, they’ll see it eventually
But the illusion must be abandoned
The structures in Abkhazia are built on an ideology of evil and ethnic supremacy, and society is fully poisoned by it
We must talk about that too
What dialogue are we even talking about?
Even now in Abkhazia, under tyranny, you cannot utter a word about the crimes that were committed
(What happens to anyone) who expresses a differing opinion?
There are examples
For instance, a very well-known figure, a hero of the Abkhaz war
For us, he was an enemy
When he said something different from the majority opinion, they pelted him with stones and threw him out.
Host:
Your minute is up
Now we’ll give the floor to Mr. Paata
Giga Bokeria:
It’s self-deception, and for years it has harmed us, those illusions aided our enemy’s propaganda
And unfortunately, my friend Mr. Paata still serves this
Agreements with Russia change nothing
You have repeatedly said that direct talks should happen with Sukhumi and Tskhinvali, with a negotiation table, pushing Russia aside
That is very harmful
It leads to all this falsehood, and society gets immersed in these illusions
Regarding the last question
You say you would never consider using force under any circumstances
That is an invitation for the enemy to behave even worse
And if they attack us, then we also should not use force?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Then we should
Giga Bokeria:
So in that case, yes?
But if they are oppressing ethnic Georgians there – then no?
That’s it, my time is up
Now I’m listening to you
Paata Zakareishvili:
Of course
First of all, there was no geopolitics in the 1990s
Now, let me also speak
Giga Bokeria:
I’m not saying anything, this is just my reaction.
ТУТ ЧТО-ТО ГОВОРИТ БОКЕРИА ОДНА КОРОТКАЯ ФРАЗА – НЕ ПОНЯЛА
Paata Zakareishvili:
Back then, the Soviet Union still existed, and Georgia wasn’t concerned with geopolitics at all
Geopolitics starts when the UN and OSCE enter our country
Everything in Georgia begins to be connected to the international context
The Soviet Union collapses
When does the conflict in Tskhinvali start?
It’s a continuation of the USSR’s collapse
Meanwhile, Abkhazia keeps passing laws that clash (with Georgian legislation)
The Abkhaz repeatedly enacted laws that contradicted Georgia’s Constitution
Giga Bokeria:
And Russia wasn’t directly at the center of this, right?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Russia, of course, is involved
But its internal politics hadn’t yet entered the geopolitical sphere
Geopolitics truly starts when Russia begins to lose territories and other states’ interests enter the picture
Giga Bokeria:
The interests of which countries?
Paata Zakareishvili:
The UN enters, and it includes the interests of many countries
The OSCE too, and the interests of many countries are involved there.
Giga Bokeria:
Did their presence provoke Russian aggression?
Paata Zakareishvili:
No, that happened after the war
Giga, when you were speaking, I didn’t interrupt you and didn’t argue.
Giga Bokeria:
The second part is interactive
НЕ ПОНИМАЮ ТУТ ФРАЗУ ГИГИ КОГДА ОН ПЕРЕБИВАЕТ ПААТУ
It’s the interactive part – those are the rules
Host:
Yes, that’s the rule.
Paata Zakareishvili:
We’ve moved into talking about absurdities
Regarding the ethnic conflict
In 1994, the OSCE called it ethnic cleansing
How can it be ethnic cleansing if there was no ethnic conflict there?
Wait, let me speak
Giga Bokeria:
I haven’t said anything
What, am I not even allowed to gesture when such absurdities are being said?
Host:
I’m giving you (Paata) five minutes, and only you can speak
Paata Zakareishvili:
Let our viewers see the arguments
Gamsakhurdia’s actions were actually quite successful
What did he do to avoid conflict from the start?
He created an ethnically-based parliament in Sukhumi
28/26/11 (seats for Abkhaz, Georgians, and others, respectively)
You know about this
This parliament was created in Abkhazia as an autonomous body to calm ethnic tensions
Gamsakhurdia had to step down for various reasons, so he cannot be blamed
But the attempt to avoid an ethnic conflict is evident in the composition of that parliament
28 seats were for Abkhaz, 26 for Georgians, and 11 for those who were neither Abkhaz nor Georgian.
Then what happens?
The parliament collapses
But not into three parts – but into two: Abkhaz and Georgians
And if we don’t want to acknowledge ethnicity, then we can talk about absurdities
Host:
Let’s give Paata some time; Giga, you’ve spoken a lot
Giga Bokeria:
Fine, let him speak.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Thank you very much for letting me speak
Giga Bokeria:
I thought this was the time for the interactive part.
Host:
Yes, it’s the interactive part, but you spoke a lot before
So let’s give Paata the floor
Then we’ll start the interactive part.
Paata Zakareishvili:
If we need to talk about the past, as you said, I’ll say that in the past it was an ethnic issue
But over time, much around us changes
Now there’s the context of Ukraine, the American context
The ethnic aspect is no longer so visible
The ethnic aspect is no longer presented so directly
I gave the OSCE as an example
The UN also confirmed that there was ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia.
Giga Bokeria:
Did genocide and ethnic cleansing happen in Bucha?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Why are you changing the subject?
Giga Bokeria:
Did it?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Yes, it happened.
Giga Bokeria:
So, that was an ethnic conflict there?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Let’s get back to the topic and speak about Abkhazia
Giga Bokeria:
That’s what we’re talking about
Thus, if the OSCE said there was ethnic cleansing, which is a form of genocide, that means the root of the conflict is ethnic, not Russian aggression?
Russia committed aggression in both Georgia and Ukraine
This tool spreads ethnic hatred and then commits genocide against Georgians based on their ethnicity
НЕПОНЯТНОЕ ОДНО ПРЕДЛОЖЕНИЕ ГИГИ ТУТ
Paata Zakareishvili:
That had nothing to do with the situation back then
How the university was organized, in what form it existed – did Russia invent all of that?
This is our problem
Giga Bokeria:
I have a question. Equating someone who committed evil with someone who made a mistake is a crime
What mistakes did the Georgian side, the Georgian political class, actually make?
No matter how flawed the ethnic perspective (from the Georgian side) was, it doesn’t explain Russian aggression.
Paata Zakareishvili:
I don’t argue with you on that.
Giga Bokeria:
You say we should discuss the current regime in Sukhumi
That means we would be offering the Russian occupation regime a narrative that goes against our interests
The real message, that all citizens should see what kind of country we are, has nothing to do with what you’re saying
Paata Zakareishvili:
ЧТО ОН СКАЗАЛ, НЕ ПОНЯЛА
Giga Bokeria:
I want to read something now, and then ask Mr. Paata a question
I have several quotes, and I’ll read them
The Georgian government must first restore direct contacts with the Abkhaz and South Ossetian sides, recognizing them as parties to the negotiations and the conflict
Paata Zakareishvili:
Absolutely
Giga Bokeria:
An agreement with these people must be reached
We are ready to support this
It’s important that Georgia builds relations with Abkhazia and South Ossetia
Whose words are these?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Probably mine.
Giga Bokeria:
Here, your words are mixed with those of Lavrov and Putin
Why?
Paata Zakareishvili:
I’m not interested in their position; I’m interested in my own.
Host:
Let’s give Mr. Paata time to respond.
Giga Bokeria:
I know you’re not interested
Now about Geneva (the negotiation platform)
Another lie
In Geneva, such first attempt failed precisely because of a principled stance
They wanted to officially recognize the Abkhaz as a party to the conflict, and we did not allow that
Paata Zakareishvili:
Yes, yes.
Giga Bokeria:
The Geneva format established that the parties are Georgia and Russia.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Nothing like that was ever formally established there
Giga Bokeria:
Paata, let’s talk about what actually exists
Maybe it’s been forgotten, but it was written in the document of the first plenary session
Paata Zakareishvili:
Nothing like that was recorded there.
Giga Bokeria:
But this didn’t satisfy the Russians, and probably not you either
The document of that plenary session states that the parties to the conflict are Russia and Georgia, with the USA, EU, and OSCE as mediators
Besides that, working groups were formed with no official parties
Participants had individual status
No one represented South Ossetia or Abkhazia
Russian propaganda called them parties and you just repeat it
Paata Zakareishvili:
I don’t repeat anyone else’s words.
Giga Bokeria:
Here’s another quote.
Host:
Please read it now, and then we’ll give Paata the floor, otherwise we won’t get through anything.
Giga Bokeria:
In Geneva, the meeting actually lasts half a day, and in that time three conflicts are discussed: Georgian-Russian, Georgian-Abkhaz, and Georgian-Ossetian
These are terms from your words
The terms are misused
But the issue isn’t just the terms
There’s something worse
It’s a lie
The Georgian government has never done this
If it did during your period, that’s very bad
None of our allies ever treated it as three conflicts
Everyone treats it as one conflict
And the Russian delegation turned it to their advantage
Host:
Please wrap up
We’ll make sure to give Paata time to speak
Giga Bokeria:
Yes, yes, absolutely
Russia has influence over the conflict precisely because, since 2004, when the National Movement developed its new policy on the conflicts, we effectively handed that influence over to them
How could you say that, Mr. Paata?
How could you claim that the Russians didn’t have influence before, and only gained it in 2004?
Host:
Now we’ll give Paata the floor, and Giga will stay out of the conversation for a while.
Paata Zakareishvili:
When you keep jumping from topic to topic, from Bucha to Cambodia or Vietnam, it won’t work
If we focus on a specific topic, let’s stick to it
What happened in 2004?
Tensions in Tskhinvali sharply escalated, and this strengthened the Russian component
Before that, from the signing of the Dagomys agreement in June 1992 until 2004, the Tskhinvali region had relatively peaceful processes
There was construction, roads were built, and many displaced Georgians returned to all regions except Tskhinvali
In 2004, the tensions began
You asked me this specific question – I’m giving a specific answer.
Giga Bokeria:
So you confirm that Russia became more influential after that?
Host:
Giga, please let Paata finish.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Yes, Russia became stronger after the escalation in the summer of 2004
Zhvania acknowledged this, by the way
Zhvania signed an agreement with Kokoyty in Sochi on behalf of Georgia.
Giga Bokeria:
There’s no way Zhvania signed the agreement
Paata Zakareishvili:
What do you mean he didn’t sign it?
Host:
I kindly ask you to let Paata finish speaking.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Kokoyty signed the agreement on behalf of South Ossetia
It was Zhvania’s last signature, 2-3 months before his death
I can send this document and it can be shown
It’s an OSCE memorandum.
Giga Bokeria:
He signed an OSCE memorandum, not an agreement with South Ossetia
This is manipulation
It was that OSCE format, but we did not sign any agreement with the so-called South Ossetia
Paata Zakareishvili:
It was a bilateral agreement
Giga Bokeria:
No, it wasn’t bilateral
Paata Zakareishvili:
You say we did not recognize South Ossetia as a party to the conflict
But here’s a well-known document
Giga Bokeria:
This harmful legacy was correctly blocked by us
Just like the previous Geneva format, where Georgia and the so-called Abkhazia were considered sides
That’s why that OSCE format was blocked
Then the OSCE supported our initiative to consider Russia a party to the conflict
But Russia blocked that
It was this harmful approach in the 1990s, claiming it was an ethnic conflict, that led us to the situation we are in today
This is exactly what they used, and it’s absurd
The war started because Russia created tension, and that’s why it happened
Paata Zakareishvili:
No, of course not, none of what you say happened
Giga Bokeria:
You haven’t changed your mindset at all, Mr. Paata, not at all
Paata Zakareishvili:
On the contrary, I’ve strengthened my position and feel even more confident in my arguments
It would have been easier for me to change my mind and adopt your point of view
Giga Bokeria:
Why not admit a mistake?
Host:
Please, Giga, let Paata finish his thought
Paata Zakareishvili:
My position is not a mistake
Giga Bokeria:
This is my final point
Those who persecuted us for so long, including some of our partners who repeated this harmful rhetoric, admitted they were wrong after Russia’s aggression in Ukraine.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Maybe someone admitted something, but what does that have to do with me?
Giga Bokeria:
Yes, I see, you still won’t admit your mistake today
Paata Zakareishvili:
Why should I follow someone else if I don’t agree?
I state clearly: Zhvania’s policy was correct
We need to eliminate bias toward the Abkhaz
We need to negotiate with the Abkhaz and reduce Russian influence there
Giga Bokeria:
Who represents Abkhazia there?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Those you spoke with when you first went to Gali.
Giga Bokeria:
I didn’t go to Gali
Paata Zakareishvili:
What do you mean you didn’t go? You went to Gali and signed there
Giga Bokeria:
I never went to Gali
Right now, you’re speaking like a representative of the Russian occupation regime
Paata Zakareishvili:
Since when is Gali part of the Russian regime? Gali is a district of Georgia
Giga Bokeria:
It’s occupied territory
Paata Zakareishvili:
You crossed over the bridge, right?
Giga Bokeria:
The meeting took place in the area we controlled
Repeat (your version) as many times as you want – it’s still a lie
В ООН это существует потому, что и там вы обманули НЕ ПОНЯЛА ЭТУ ФРАЗУ
I spoke with representatives of the Russian occupation regime in Geneva, but as representatives of Russia
And you, Mr. Paata, your current propaganda, along with the Russian president, foreign minister, and all those deeply mistaken partners, tell us the same
Unfortunately, you are still repeating that this dialogue should not be with Russia, but with some of its representatives, whatever you want to call them
(Pretending) a dialogue with the Abkhaz is about ethnic issues, while Russia stays on the sidelines
Paata Zakareishvili:
Why are you talking about some ethnic issues?
We’re talking about the Abkhaz – let’s stick to that
Giga Bokeria:
And what can we say about the Abkhaz? I’ve already said, I think all this is absurd
Host:
19 minutes left.
I’ll add 10 of those, five minutes each
Then we’ll move to the stage where we discuss what needs to be done after de-occupation (of Abkhazia)
Right now, Paata has five minutes
Paata Zakareishvili:
We need to have a dialogue on ending the isolation of (Abkhazia)
Right now, the Abkhaz are trapped.
Can I continue speaking?
Host:
Yes, these are your five minutes.
Giga Bokeria:
I think it doesn’t matter whether I gesture or speak
I’ll just say that it isn’t true
Host:
These five minutes are for (Paata) to speak, Giga will not interrupt
Paata Zakareishvili:
The key point is that the Russians are sharply accusing the Abkhaz, exploiting the fact that they are isolated
They are twisting their arms to get what they want because they realize they are losing something important
One crucial issue is that the Abkhaz cannot leave their territory
The only place they can go is Russia
The second and third key points
The Abkhaz travel as best they can
For example, 70% go to Russia, the remaining 30% travel to Turkey or Armenia
This is where my idea comes in
Georgia has agreements with Turkey and Armenia allowing Georgian citizens to travel there using internal ID, not just passports
Not only with a passport but also with an internal ID
This is the idea to help end the isolation of the Abkhaz
You, the National Movement (addressing Giga), left us an interesting healthcare project
We managed to change the National Movement’s requirement that the Abkhaz must take Georgian passports to get treatment in Georgia, even though there was nothing wrong with that
But we added a rule allowing Abkhaz and Ossetians to get treatment in Georgia using their own documents
Dozens eventually came using their own documents (Abkhaz and Ossetian)
I believe steps were taken in the right direction
Because right now, many Abkhaz and Ossetians are in Georgia, receiving treatment using their own documents
========
===========
Giga Bokeria:
Sorry, his time is already up.
What topic are you talking about?
Host:
No, his time isn’t over. I’ve added another 10 minutes for this part of the discussion
Paata Zakareishvili:
Next, business was added to the same scheme, the program «К лучшему будущему», during (the PM) Kvirikashvili’s time
The Abkhaz and Ossetians were receiving state benefits in Georgia using their own documents
Here’s the idea
You have an ID that’s invalid and illegal in Georgia.
Yet, you use it to get medical care and do business in Georgia.
You can even receive state grants using it
(The further steps) might not be publicized, but it’s better to inform about it
Let’s recognize their documents as equivalent to Georgian internal IDs
We’ve already effectively done this
They receive treatment here using their documents, which are registered legally as Georgian internal IDs
Then we inform Turkey and Armenia that Georgia issues (more) internal IDs
The first document is the one that all Georgian citizens have
Second – the documents they have in Abkhazia.
Third – Ossetian documents
And these people will be able to enter and exit Turkey and Armenia (using their own documents)
They won’t be able to travel anywhere else using these documents
Georgia must show more goodwill and break their isolation
For these two countries, we already have a system in place for such trips
So they (Abkhaz and Ossetians) won’t be able to travel elsewhere
Georgia doesn’t have such agreements with other countries
But in Armenia and Turkey, we can ensure that the maximum number of Ossetians and Abkhaz (can travel there)
Giga Bokeria:
What topic are we talking about?
We are talking about the people appointed by the Russian occupation regime in Sukhumi
This is the topic, right?
Host:
Giga, please let him finish
Paata Zakareishvili:
Nothing has been done for 30 years
And now suddenly they have the opportunity to travel to Turkey and Armenia with their document, which also counts as a Georgian ID
Why not start something?
We started with healthcare
Continued with business and education
The education (attempt) failed, but something was achieved
Why not let these people travel through Georgia?
They leave Sukhumi, pass through Achara, all of Georgia, go to Turkey, work there, and then return the same way
They won’t be able to travel anywhere else from there
Giga Bokeria: And then what?
Paata Zakareishvili:
What do you mean, “then”?
We need to start with something
How can we endlessly talk about reconciliation steps?
These are concrete steps
We can discuss more later
In five years, we’ll see how things develop
If none of this works, we’ll try other ideas
The Middle Corridor will pass (through Georgia), bringing internet, for example, from Europe
Why not establish another line?
So that internet in Abkhazia connects to Georgia, not Russia
Host:
Would Russia even allow this to happen?
Paata Zakareishvili:
We need to start taking action, to change the situation
If Russia doesn’t allow it – then we’ll discuss it later
ТУТ ПААТА ЧТО ТО СКАЗАЛ – НЕ ПОНЯЛА
We need to work on practical measures
Banks, the banking system
Why not create a basic banking system in the Gali region so local Georgians can send and receive funds?
Overall, people in Abkhazia would use this system, which would be linked to Georgia’s banking network.
Many steps can be taken even before de-occupation
De-occupation will happen – but by that time we could completely lose these people
And it’s possible that instead of de-occupation, annexation could occur
Just as Crimea was annexed and incorporated by Russia, the same could happen with Abkhazia
Host:
Thank you
Giga, I’m giving you five minutes now.
Giga Bokeria:
I’ve been listening all this time and I don’t understand: what is the topic of this discussion?
Host:
The topic is: what concrete steps should be taken for de-occupation
Giga Bokeria:
I don’t even have illusions anymore after hearing all this today
And after Russia’s aggression in Ukraine.
What will help people understand and open their minds to what is actually happening?
The steps Georgia takes for citizens in the occupied territories don’t depend on their ethnicity.
Whether it’s healthcare or something else
This could be part of discussing our long-term interests
But this has nothing to do with what Mr. Paata says, and unfortunately, this is where many in our parties are mistaken
And most importantly – our enemy has for years demanded that dialogue be held with the governments it appointed there
Russia wants us to recognize them as a party to the conflict
And this is exactly what Mr. Paata is saying
These are the statements I read (as Paata’s quotes), and this is what you’ve discussed today.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Yes, yes.
Giga Bokeria:
This is the main evil opposing our national interests
The other steps you listed – some are correct, some are wrong
You can debate some of the steps you mentioned
But it’s absurd to talk about this while Russia has full military and political control there
The assumption that (such steps) could lead to a breakthrough – is, forgive me, a politically harmful foolishness
Why?
Because no one gives up power voluntarily
That doesn’t happen
The current conditions there can roughly be compared to the situation in Gaza
Some say you need to work with public opinion in Gaza
There are people who say that
Under Hamas’ tyranny?
I must say, regardless of the situation in the Tskhinvali region and Abkhazia under Russian rule, any dialogue is impossible until a transitional process is carried out
What kind of country is Georgia? What can it offer everyone?
There are factors for the long-term perspective
However, they have nothing to do with fulfilling the geopolitical goal the enemy wants – recognizing Sukhumi and Tskhinvali as parties to the conflict
Host:
НЕ ПОНЯЛА, ЧТО ОНА ГОВОРИТ
Giga Bokeria:
This won’t bring any breakthrough in the situation
It’s the illusion I’ve heard from you many times
That they would see and say: “What a good country Georgia is, let’s join the Georgians”
Evil will never allow anything like that
Paata Zakareishvili:
Evil is not a political term
Host:
НЕ ПОНЯЛА, ЧТО ОНА ГОВОРИТ
Giga Bokeria:
Violence exists
That’s why I gave examples
Look at the situation in Gaza – the whole world helped, invested enormous sums of money
Yet all they did was build tunnels and buy weapons
Because it is a parasitic system built on ethnic hatred – a system Russia has created there, in Abkhazia
Host:
That’s why we need to show goodwill toward Abkhaz and other ethnic groups
Giga Bokeria:
That has nothing to do with it
Resolving the conflict means neutralizing Russian aggression
We must be a good country for all our citizens.
Of course, that matters for the part of the territory we haven’t yet returned to
Once that force is dismantled, than we’ll discuss and may disagree on what the civic order should look like afterward
There is only one political nation – the Georgian nation
It can include citizens of different ethnic backgrounds, cultures, and religions.
But there is no state that contains two nations.
State and nation are one – and only one
All these ideas I’ve heard, including from Saakashvili.
A “Georgian–Abkhaz state”
That is a catastrophic mistake.
History gives us an example of a disastrously wrong step taken by President Gamsakhurdia, which had grave consequences
The rise of Ardzinba
Paata Zakareishvili:
It had no consequences at all
Unfortunately, that idea failed
Giga Bokeria:
I know, I know.
Ardzinba was elected as a result of that.
Both Gamsakhurdia himself and his supporters later admitted it was a wrong decision
But the very approach of building politics on an ethnic basis is destructive to the idea of a national state.
I’m not saying people should be forcibly assimilated or made to forget their identity, whether religious, cultural, or ethnic
That is precisely the task of a strong state, a free society, and a free republic
Political culture and vision must be unified for a single political nation – the Georgian nation.
And everyone is part of that nation.
Let’s return to the main question you raised.
That supposedly no breakthrough is possible this way
If a breakthrough happens for people living there, it will occur without any direct so‑called dialogue with the enemy
What does this “dialogue” have to do with anything?
I also have experience with such dialogue.
Mr. Zakareishvili does as well.
They do not allow discussion of any serious issues.
They refuse to talk about Georgia’s territorial integrity.
They refuse to talk about the return of displaced Georgians.
They won’t even discuss the rights of ethnic Georgians living there.
Mr. Paata was a minister under Ivanishvili’s regime.
They did everything for them (for Abkhaz)
They supplied them with electricity.
They violated agreements and supplied it for free.
The result was bans on the Georgian language, closures of Georgian schools, killings, and repression
Zero positive outcome.
That’s the case with every such step.
When you appear weak, the enemy sees it as weakness.
And responds with even greater brutality.
All this talk about “brotherhood” applies to Russia and its satellites, raised on an ideology of hatred
Russian control must be completely removed.
Mr. Paata says we should avoid topics that might irritate Abkhazians.
Paata Zakareishvili:
НЕ ПОНЯЛА ЧТО СКАЗАЛ
Giga Bokeria:
Didn’t you say we shouldn’t talk about what the enemy dislikes?
Meaning not to talk about fundamental issues without which coexistence is impossible
You do agree that killing women and children on ethnic grounds is evil, don’t you?
If even this cannot be discussed, what kind of breakthrough have you achieved?
Paata Zakareishvili:
This is a settled issue, both the UN and OSCE have a solution
Giga Bokeria:
The UN and OSCE? (not serious)
Paata Zakareishvili:
Who told you we shouldn’t discuss this?
Giga Bokeria:
These topics aren’t included in the dialogue – so what are we supposed to talk about?
I asked, and you said we shouldn’t talk about restoring territorial integrity.
Paata Zakareishvili:
Where did you get that, Giga?
Giga Bokeria:
And why didn’t you bring it up? Does that mean we should be talking about it?
Paata Zakareishvili:
When was I supposed to mention it? We were discussing something else
Giga Bokeria:
That’s the lie you’ve been repeating for years – that Russia gained influence after 2004.
Paata Zakareishvili:
No, that’s not what I said.
Giga Bokeria:
All these international organizations, despite their good intentions, became involved in this so-called “conflictology.”
The result of this conflictology was the normalization of evil.
(You say:)) we must treat these ethnic Abkhazians as a community, understand them, avoid upsetting them.
Sure, they killed people, but we shouldn’t (talk about it)
Some people in these international organizations went along with this – politically, and some not only politically
Host:
We are discussing the past; let’s focus on the future.
Giga Bokeria:
We need to break this cycle of evil.
You can’t have a dialogue where someone claims to represent the Abkhaz
Because the people currently there represent no one but the Russian government.
Paata Zakareishvili:
That’s not true; what you’re saying is a lie.
Host:
Let’s end this part of the conversation
And let’s move to a ten-minute segment where we’ll discuss the steps that need to be taken after de-occupation
We’ll also divide the time so each of you has five minutes.
I think this will make it easier to speak.
Mr. Paata, I’ll give you five minutes.
Giga Bokeria:
So, we’ll talk about the time when Georgia controls Abkhazia
Not just under our jurisdiction, but also under our actual control.
De jure, Abkhazia is part of Georgia even now, but Russia is there too.
Host:
The Abkhaz people live there.
Giga Bokeria:
Not only.
Many other nationalities live there too.
Host:
Yes, not only.
Also displaced persons.
Georgians displaced from Abkhazia currently live in different regions of Georgia.
They want to return
What about the fact that other people now live in their homes?
How should we handle these issues assuming de-occupation has already taken place?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Mr. Giga accused me of using the word “brothers”
I never used the word “brothers” regarding the Abkhaz
Giga has said it probably 20 times
Don’t accuse me of something I never said.
You’re blaming me for things I didn’t even think about.
You said I didn’t mention territorial integrity.
But our conversation here is about what can and should be done now.
We were talking about what the Abkhaz want today.
Giga Bokeria:
Are we going back to that topic again?
Paata Zakareishvili:
Well, I have five minutes.
Host:
At the end, each of you will have an additional three minutes.
Let’s use these five minutes as agreed.
Paata Zakareishvili:
He accused me of things I hadn’t even thought of.
Not only did I not say it – I couldn’t even imagine being accused of it.
What do we need to do when de-occupation happens?
Of course, some kind of concept should be ready even today.
It doesn’t have to be agreed with the Abkhazians.
Though it’s better to discuss with them, it’s not mandatory.
A concept of how Georgia views Abkhazia as part of the country
The concept doesn’t have to be fully formed or final.
It should remain open.
It should allow room for including live, concrete proposals when the time comes.
Similar to what the Federal Republic of Germany did, waiting for the right moment.
=======
===========
Giga Bokeria:
We are talking about a period when (deoccupation) has already occurred, yet you still do not understand it
Paata Zakareishvili:
As I understand it, we are talking about a time when Abkhazia is already part of Georgia
So what is the problem?
Host:
The problem is that other people live there (in Georgian homes), and Georgians now live in other regions of Georgia
Paata Zakareishvili:
This is actually the simplest problem
The most important thing is, God willing, that Georgians and Abkhazians reach an agreement so that one day unified elections are held across all of Georgia, including Abkhazia
We would elect unified institutions a single parliament
Host:
How will local issues be resolved? Won’t this turn into another dispute?
Paata Zakareishvili:
It will be necessary to create joint commissions from the two sides that will make decisions
Paata Zakareishvili:
For example, an Abkhaz may live in a particular apartment that actually belongs to a Georgian
The Georgian has a claim and wants to get his apartment back.
The commission would speak with both the Abkhaz and the Georgian
Whoever leaves the apartment would be offered a better alternative
This is a relatively easy issue
It has already been discussed here
There is the Kofi Annan plan
It was not implemented because reconciliation did not occur
It is a unique plan
It can be taken up and (implemented)
Giga Bokeria:
And who rejected that plan?
Paata Zakareishvili:
The Greeks.
Giga Bokeria:
Yes, yes. And why did they reject it?
Paata Zakareishvili:
That is a completely different topic.
Giga Bokeria:
You brought up this example yourself
Paata Zakareishvili:
It did not work in Cyprus
But it may work in our case
Giga Bokeria:
Why do you think it was rejected?
It wasn’t the Greeks – it was the Cypriots
Host:
Giga, I ask you not to interfere
Paata Zakareishvili:
I know why they rejected it, but that discussion would take us too far
I do not agree with their approach
The Greek side did not want to share the benefits with the Turkish part of the territory
Host:
Let’s talk about what could happen here, in our case
Paata Zakareishvili:
Of course, that could happen (in our case as well)
It cannot be ruled out
Host:
What is the alternative?
Paata Zakareishvili:
The alternative is if Georgians say they will give nothing to the Abkhaz
That is roughly what happened in Cyprus
Host:
Or the Abkhaz themselves may refuse, since they are already living there now
Giga Bokeria:
I know, which is why I asked
The same story will repeat here as it did in Cyprus, and nothing else will happen
Paata Zakareishvili:
The Greeks said no
But imagine there’s a referendum in Georgia, asking: “Do you want Georgians and Abkhaz to live in one state?”
And Georgians answer: “No”?
Giga Bokeria:
There was resistance to dividing power along ethnic lines
Host:
Giga, please, you’ll speak in your turn
Paata Zakareishvili:
Giga, there’s a lot to cover
Giga Bokeria:
Paata’s time is up
Paata Zakareishvili:
I am sorry, but no
Giga Bokeria:
НЕПОНЯТНО ЧТО ОН ТУТ ГОВОРИТ
Host:
Giga, stop
I’m giving a little more time to Paata
Paata Zakareishvili:
I’ve been to Cyprus many times and could debate it at length
I’m not saying I know it better than you, I don’t
I could talk about Cyprus for the entire show without a problem
But I gave this example to show how a well-designed restitution project failed
Let’s take that project and adapt it for Georgia
I don’t mean just translating, it’s already exist in Georgian
I mean adapting it to Georgia’s context
There are many ways to distribute property between Abkhaz and Georgians so both sides are more or less satisfied
Nothing will be perfect
But that’s not the main problem
The bigger issue comes first: how will reconciliation happen?
Here’s the point
How will it happen?
As we see, Giga isn’t willing to talk to them
However, it’ll be impossible to move forward otherwise
The process must include both parties
That’s why I insist
If we don’t talk to Abkhaz and don’t recognize them as a negotiation party and a conflict party, we can’t create the first spark for a federative solution
Who do we talk to?
Anyone who represents Abkhaz society
A little pushback, a little goodwill
Whoever they may be, we need to engage with anyone who can represent the interests of Abkhazian society within their mandate
Even if Russia appointed them once
We have no other choice
You and I actually know who’s who in Abkhazia, in Sukhumi
We know what each of these people represents
We’ll take that experience into account
That’s why I enjoy debating with you
Because more is expected of both of us – of you and of me – including when we act on our own, outside this broadcast
Giga Bokeria:
I would say the same thing separately as I am saying here
Paata Zakareishvili:
You cannot be a real party to the process if you don’t understand who is on the other side.
If they don’t take responsibility and don’t carry the proposals coming from the Georgian side to Sukhumi, nothing will work
That’s why this spark is essential – constant contact with Sukhumi, with someone responsible who can pass on our messages
Otherwise, nothing will come of it
That’s why I believe it’s necessary to agree on a bilateral memorandum – some form of arrangement – with international support and the backing of our strong partners, in order to create guarantees
The problems Abkhaz have with Georgians have existed for thirty years
Nothing has been done
The situation there is steadily deteriorating
We have many problems as well
Host:
We are also slowly moving backward.
Paata Zakareishvili:
It is happening very slowly
But it’s not as catastrophic as in Abkhazia
Unfortunately, we are moving backward too
Once we manage to put Georgia on a democratic track
And I say “put,” not “return,” because we are not returning Georgia to democracy but placing it on that path
Because so far Georgia has not been independent enough for that, unfortunately
We must truly commit to a genuine European democratic path
And then Georgia will look completely different in the eyes of Abkhaz
——–
=======
Host:
Thank you. I’m giving Giga five minutes now.
You may ask questions if you wish
Or you can continue the topic Mr. Paata was speaking about
Whatever you think is appropriate
Giga Bokeria:
No, not on that topic
I’ve already stated all my arguments on that issue
The most dangerous thing is adopting models where people are treated according to ethnicity, even though they are citizens (of the same state)
I can give many examples from around the world where the result is either catastrophe or a very severe political and social crisis
Host:
НЕ ПОНЯЛА ЧТО ОНА СКАЗАЛА
Giga Bokeria:
(It’s pretending) as if dividing people along ethnic lines were somehow a sign of conflict resolution
When someone decides that this or that position should belong to an Abkhaz
That’s how it was in the Soviet Union
Your ethnicity was written in your passport
Because they didn’t want the concept of a civic nation to exist
Paata Zakareishvili:
НЕ ПОНЯЛА ЧТО ОН СКАЗАЛ
Host:
Let’s allow Giga to finish
Giga Bokeria:
НЕ ПОНЯЛА ЧТО ОН СКАЗАЛ
We were united, including Abkhaz and Georgians – citizens living in Abkhazia
And the idea of a Georgian civic nation prevailed
Paata Zakareishvili:
How exactly was that?
Giga Bokeria:
Yes, yes
There were three rounds of elections
There’s an excellent organization called the Laboratory for the Study of the Soviet Past
They uncovered strong archival documents and produced solid research
Including how “ethnic Georgian” Bolsheviks carried out the work of our enemy, while “ethnic Abkhaz” were part of Georgia’s political elite
That’s the difference between the chauvinism imposed in the Soviet Union by Stalin and the Russians under the guise of ethnicity, and our task today: building civic nationalism
Civic nationalism means there is only one civic nation
Attempts in the free world to replace this concept with ‘multiculturalism’ and multiple identities (have not succeeded)
Mr. Paata said he didn’t call Abkhazians “brothers”
But the essence is the same
You just repeated it again: that there must be two subjects
But in a state, there is only one subject
There is only one state nation
Paata:
Negotiations, Giga
Giga:
That is the core principle that must guide our approach
Now about what happens after that hoped‑for day, when our enemy weakens or changes – God willing, though we can hardly expect this from Russia
At that point, Georgia would be a unified nation, with a government fully controlling Abkhazia
Then the problem of a very heavy legacy emerges
We must be cautious, because evil never disappears without consequences
There is international experience that shows this
For example, after Nazi Germany was defeated, the Allies assumed control over parts of the country
Or in Japan after the defeat of its fascist regime
You have to carefully calculate how to act
And in this case, the situation is essentially the same
State institutions must establish relations with the community living there
With those who are free from the evil Russia created and left behind – embodied by the current authorities in Sukhumi and Tskhinvali
And you, Mr. Paata, are calling for dialogue with them
Of course, the emergence of local leaders in a community free from that influence will be an important factor
That will be taken into account, and at that point Georgia itself will become a stabilizing force, ensuring civil peace and eliminating the need for force
But the factor of force will always exist
Because, I repeat, the legacy of this parasitic system filled with hatred and evil will persist.
That’s why I mentioned Gaza as an example
Simply letting people go and giving them money isn’t enough when such an ideology dominates society
There are people there who disagree with Hamas as well
Just as during Russian aggression, there were ethnic Abkhazians in Georgian public service who were killed for it
This is not only about ethnic Georgians
People from various ethnic groups were killed or expelled because they rejected the Russian regime, refused to take part in hatred and killings, and defended Georgians
A well‑known example is the two Greek women killed for heroically sheltering Georgians
That is how fascist the hell created by Russia was
As for property
The starting principle is that property belongs to those from whom it was taken by force
Of course, there may be cases where alternative solutions are possible
But this must remain the guiding principle
Those living in someone else’s property should be given options – if they committed no crimes against humanity and accept Georgia’s Constitution and the rules of the new system
They should have many opportunities to live there as Georgian citizens who accept the Constitution.
But not at the expense of the rightful owner
Not by telling the owner that some commission might decide not to return their home
That is the wrong approach
We must find other solutions – without burdening the victim
Overall, this is the issue both Mr. Paata and I are talking about
Every individual – our citizens – and every group, whether defined by culture or religion, must be treated as equal citizens
In this respect, Georgia’s political class had serious problems in the past
The current regime is now taking disastrous steps in this direction
But it must be understood that these equal rights come not from being an ethnic Abkhaz, but from being a citizen of Georgia
Not as representatives of groups – especially those installed by our enemy to manage this evil
You want to talk to them to understand what Abkhaz want
No
After Georgia restores its territorial integrity, a system of broad self‑government will be implemented there
We are federalists and strong supporters of this approach
But not on an ethnic basis
There are many possible models
For example, territorial rotation could be used so no group feels dominated by another
Solutions like that can be designed
But none of this should be based on bloodlines or ethnic origin
Every one of us will be a citizen of Georgia
These kinds of divisions are exactly what our enemy wants – and what destroys civil peace
So yes, overcoming this legacy of evil will not be easy
Those who committed crimes of extreme brutality must be punished
That society will require a form of denazification
The same process that must occur in Donbas and Crimea
Mr. Paata did not like this comparison
Even though the comparison is very accurate
Paata:
I don’t like it when unrelated topics are brought into the conversation
Giga:
Well, that certainly didn’t sit well with you
Paata:
I don’t like it when an unrelated topic is introduced
Giga:
It’s not unrelated
It’s the same issue – Russian aggression is the main problem
Host:
You have only a few words left, so please finish up
Giga:
Sorry, I’ll finish
For such a transition, denazification is necessary
Very painful events happened in that society
We need to understand what crimes were committed
The Georgian state and society can help with this, especially those who view things rationally, considering both their own identity and the future
That’s why I gave these examples, even though none of them are exact matches
The situation after the defeat of Nazi Germany or Japan
Or what Ukraine will face after de-occupation – which will not be simple
These are complex processes
We arrived at this topic because of your question
I believe the Georgian state will be capable of handling this problem
At that time, Georgia will be a republic where every citizen feels fully included
Rights will be protected, and ethnicity will not matter
Everyone will be, in a civic sense, a Georgian
Host:
Thank you for an interesting discussion
Now we’ll move to the final round
Each of you will have three minutes
You can summarize today’s debate and say anything you feel you didn’t get a chance to express
Let’s start with Paata
Paata:
Thank you very much, Mr. Giga
In our society, there are two clearly defined positions, which became evident during this discussion
These positions largely contradict each other and cannot complement one another
I believe they converge on one point: the Russian factor
However, my key point is that there must be a direct and clear dialogue with the Abkhaz side – as a conflict party and as a negotiation party
They must become a recognized party
This is necessary to create a format of two parties – not between states, not between Georgia and Abkhazia, but between the conflict parties: the Abkhaz and Georgian sides.
On that basis, any form of state acceptable to both sides could be built
This is where I see the fundamental importance
We also must take into account Russia’s reality in this format, as Giga points out
Russia is weakening during this period, while we are growing stronger
Our geopolitical position is strong
Russia is genuinely retreating from the Caucasus, and it’s visible
We must show the Abkhaz where they stand
We can see how this is happening in Azerbaijan and Armenia
Georgia has no diplomatic or institutional ties with Russia, and there’s no movement toward that – I hope there won’t be
But judging by their actions, we are moving toward Russia
If we manage to keep the Caucasus free from Russia, naturally, implementing bilateral relations with the Abkhaz side will be a thousand times easier
I think this should be our main direction
ТУТ НЕ ПОНЯЛА ФРАЗУ
We need to think carefully about what comes next
Today, we need to focus on what is happening now
Host:
Thank you, Mr. Paata
Now, Giga, you can summarize the debate
Giga:
Mr. Paata keeps repeating the same mistake, and it’s very harmful
What kind of satellite structures exist today in Sukhumi and Tskhinvali?
Puppets
And you want to have a dialogue with them?
These people are entirely under Russia’s control
The situation is fully controlled by Russia
We discussed what will happen after Russian aggression is neutralized
Then, in that space – which will be de-Russified and denazified – initiative groups will emerge among Georgian citizens, regardless of ethnicity
We need a dialogue with them – they are co-owners of our country
There is no debate about that
Anyone who tries to change things or set rules on this basis will be an enemy of Georgia’s national interests
But (the dialogue) should not be conducted under the excuse that they have a difficult legacy and that it won’t be easy
Today, we cannot do what our enemy wants
Pretending this isn’t a problem with Russia – or that it’s just one of many issues – won’t lead to any agreement with them, except outcomes that harm us
That’s simply impossible
They are serving the enemy
Today, if you look at social media there, I’m shocked at what I see
It’s a hysterical celebration of evil
They go to war in Ukraine and become part of Russia’s war machine
The people you, Mr. Paata, suggest dialoguing with are the main supporters of all this
They are the main propagators of normalized hatred and ethnically motivated violence
You cannot reach a settlement unless you speak to them from a position of strength
If we speak from a position of strength, a compromise may be possible with some of these enclaves of evil
This is necessary to ensure de-occupation happens with minimal damage and risk
This is entirely acceptable
But this approach has nothing to do with the future civil peace in our country, of which Abkhazia is a part
On the contrary, the key will be the rise of local leaders from among our Georgian citizens
They must feel that the Georgian state is their state, and be ready to do everything for it
But this has nothing to do with illusions or repeating harmful enemy propaganda about a path to the future or easing tensions
For years before Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, many – even in the European political class – followed this line, and it was a disaster
“Discuss with them and everything will be solved” – that was the claim
And, of course, it was a lie
From the perspective of Ukrainian victims, the heroic struggle of Ukraine and this tragic aggression
There was the opportunity to neutralize (Russia)
If we had a normal national government now, it would do this – before we even physically regain control of our territory
We have a project created by the “Federalists” party and our allies – the Abkhaz Assembly, the Institute of Freedom
It’s the “Before Bucha, There Was Abkhazia” project
It’s an attempt to neutralize the remnants of this poison among our allies in the political class
I’ll repeat this again
When Russia weakens, and we are ready – as I hope – we must tackle this problem, because it won’t disappear on its own
If the conversation turns back to ethnicity and “two sides,” this evil will have the chance to manipulate and create more problems for us
That’s why the narrative must be clear and unified
Russian aggression must be neutralized first
Then we can talk with our citizens about building a country with broad regional self-governance, ensuring that no one’s identity is threatened
If we want, we can learn from successful examples in the free world, where civic nationalism prevailed and a civic nation was built
But not the bad experience, where compromises led to ethnic quota systems that caused catastrophe or constant danger in those countries
Host:
Thank you both. This is a very complex topic, and the debate reflected that. I hope that very soon we will somehow manage to regain Abkhazia and Samachablo. Then the only topic will be who lives where and how at the local level. I hope that time comes very soon. Once again, thank you.
Resolve the Georgian–Abkhaz conflict, role of Russia
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